Metagame np: Stage 1: New Rules (Vivillon quickban post #173)

Vulpix03

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gunna do a quick write up as well.

:oricorio-pau: Pau was the most broken pokemon in the tier by a longshot in my opinion. Although it didn't have the ability to run as many different tera types as its fire brother, the few it did use made most turns a guessing game when trying to check it. Tera Ground gave you an electric immunity and a way to hit steels and rock types for super effective damage, and tera fighting allowed you to absorb priority moves such as quick attack, espeed, sucker punch and ice shard while also hitting steels and rocks. Tera + a solid speed tier just made it too strong for the tier and i'm glad it's gone.

One thing to note with the pau ban, however, is that we lost one of the best checks to other quiver dancers such as vivillion and lilligant. These are definitely mons we should keep an eye on as the meta progresses.


:haunter: Haunter is incredibly strong, and very versatile with wisp+hex, scarf, specs, and nasty plot all being viable sets. It is also very frail, even with eviolite, and is easy to wear down. Ultimately when both using and playing against haunter i never felt like it was *too* strong, so I voted DNB.

:magneton: Magneton is another victim of Tera potentially pushing it over the edge. Specs or eviolite tera water are very strong, and most teams don't have switch ins to it. It also has the bulk, especially with eviolite, to sponge a lot of hits. The main thing keeping me from voting ban is its speed tier. Although bulky it is easy to wear down and revenge kill from my experience. It's a mon that we should keep an eye on, but I don't believe it to be quick ban worthy yet.

- my jumbled thoughts while at work
 
:sv/raboot:
I like Raboot.

I'd say Raboot is comfortably the best Protean/Libero user in the tier mainly due to its surprisingly strong movepool. I'll admit I first looked into Raboot to see if it had Court Change but was left disappointed. However, I kept looking through and, oh man, Flare Blitz, High Jump Kick, Gunk Shot, Acrobatics, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Taunt, Swords Dance, Raboot is very much able make up for its lackluster base Atk with its moves' BP.

Unfortunately, while Raboot is pretty quick, its 94 base Spe leaves it in an awkward spot, just a touch behind Houndoom and Haunter, the latter of which is a real issue if you don't have Sucker Punch as scarfed sets can OHKO Raboot outright. However non-damaged-boosted sets are still quite effective as with just the Libero STAB boost, Raboot can OHKO some high tier Pokemon like Houndoom, Perrserker, specs Magneton, AV Crabominable, etc. Because of this the door is open to play a bit of dress up with scarfs, boots, and Eviolites while still being an offensive threat. I've been really enjoying using it and would recommend you to try it out yourself and see what you think.

This is the main set I've been using:
Raboot @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
 
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EonX

Battle Soul
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Gonna jump on the Raboot hype train a little bit and discuss why I feel it's in a pretty solid place in the meta.

Raboot @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch

While Scarf is also pretty good, I really enjoy using the Boots set as it has a really solid Speed tier. While getting outpaced by Houndoom in particular is kind of lame (Haunter still has to play with Sucker Punch) it's still able to outpace the likes of Rotom-Frost, Vivillon (before QD) non-Scarf Lycanroc, Squawkabilly, and Gabite in order to put pressure on their teams with powerful STAB moves. I don't think Raboot should ever be leaving home without Blitz and HJK as their power and coverage are just too good to pass up on. U-turn is your general good stuff momentum move to keep you in control and Sucker Punch is pretty necessary without Choice Scarf in order to smack faster Pokemon like Haunter, Pyroar, boosted Vivillon and Lilligant, Sawsbuck, and weather threats in Golduck and Scovillan. Due to Libero's interaction with Tera, you should never be using Tera on Raboot unless you absolutely need to nuke something into next week with Flare Blitz.
So why is Raboot actually in a decent place right now? While, yes, it has high-powered moves to circumvent its decidedly average base 86 Attack stat, the real reason lies in its movepool and the defensive threats around it. Fire + Fighting coverage is pretty powerful right now as there really isn't a defensive Pokemon in the tier that is exactly thrilled about trying to handle both types. This in conjunction with its base 94 Speed means that even offensive teams are likely to have a couple of Pokemon slower than it where Raboot can come in off of a predicted switch or U-turn / Volt Switch from a teammate. The last point is also what makes Raboot surprisingly splashable... well, that and the fact it almost never uses Tera. Being able to form a VoltTurn core with the likes of Rotom-Frost, Electrode, and Magneton is a major plus for it. In particular, Rotom-Frost + Raboot forms a double Boots VoltTurn core that is pretty challenging to wear down due to their hazard immunity (thanks Boots... also, how does Rotom-Frost wear boots?) and tendency to continually switch around which makes it difficult for their checks to chip them down.
 
Hey in case yall are having trouble countering physical attackers such as Guts Squawkabilly, Slaking, and Band Wugtrio, I have the solution!

And in this corner, Dwayne "The Stonjourner" Johnson!"

download (2).jpg

Lemme start off by saying this guy's stats are(Mostly) fucking insane. With a BST of 470, Stonjourner has 100 HP, 125 Attack and 135 Defense, as well as 70 Speed which is decent in this tier. This actually could've been Gen 8's Garganacl if it didn't have it's main weakness: 20 Special Defense.
The reason most people don't use this in higher tiers or even this tier is because even at the maximum HP possible, Stonjourner does not have the special bulk to tank any special attack unless the user has very low special attack. Stonjourner also lost Heat Crash this gen, which I do not see as much of an issue in my opinion.

Now for the plus sides! Stonjourner has a lot of status moves, the main ones in play being Rock Polish and Iron Defense, which double Speed and Defense respectively. If swapped into a physical attacker(especially Slaking) it can set up easily running both of these moves. Stonjourner also has access to Body Press, a fighting type move that is based off of the user's Defense stat rather than its Attack stat. In other words, if you manage to max out your defense and Tera Fighting, you could easily sweep a team of Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of fighting resistances or immunities. For the 4th move, a STAB rock move is fine, preferably Stone Edge or Rock Blast. It's a great set, and it can even counter Pokemon with the type advantage such as Flapple and Quaxwell.

I will stress that you need to be careful around special attackers, and if you feel Stonjourner cannot KO the special pokemon in 1 hit you need to swap it out. A particular counter to this Pokemon is Grumpig, who is beefy enough to tank more than two 4x Defense Body Presses even with Tera.

Now go out there and wall those physical attackers!
Stonjourner @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Spot
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Def/ 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Rock Polish
- Body Press
- Stone Edge
 
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asa

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:sv/dartrix:
Dartrix @ Eviolite
Ability: Long Reach
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 Spe
Impish / Bold Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird / Night Shade

So this thing exists. I know Dartrix is not the most impressive or interesting Pokemon, which is probably why no one has talked much about it. Upon using it a little myself, I can certainly say that it's incredibly mediocre. For just about every positive I can think of, there's a negative to go with it. For example, Dartrix is a Defogger that's immune to Toxic Spikes (technically two positives in one), but it's weak to Stealth Rock and doesn't match up particularly well against hazard setters not named Gabite. Roost only having 8 PP and thus not being very spammable also hurts, and it's a bit more passive than Quaxwell. Still, Knock Off is rare atm and prevents things from switching in for free, and Dartrix does offer some useful resistances to Grass, Water, and Fighting (even if a lot of Pokemon of these types often have coverage for it). While it's certainly not a perfect replacement for either of the Oricorio formes, I think Dartrix is the best of the non-Quaxwell hazard removers, and I also think it'll catch on a little more if the meta keeps evolving against Quaxwell like it currently is.

:vivillon:
Probably the most broken Pokemon in the tier for me. It's both too reliable and too self-sufficient for how devastating it can be and how inconsistent counterplay can become. I want to see if offensive counterplay (maybe an uptick in strong, non-Sucker Punch priority users or Choice Scarfers with above base 89 Speed) keeps developing and changes my mind, but it would be unrealistic to expect teams to always have one or both of these while still handling the rest of the metagame.

:haunter:
For now, I'm okay with this still being in the tier. It's probably the most versatile Pokemon we have, and its naturally great offensive traits let it do anything it wants well; however, it never ends up feeling too crazy in any game I see it in. Skuntank is very common (so far only missing one Top 5 in the kickoff tour usage stats) and a lot of the tier's better defensive Pokemon are just bulky enough to take a hit from Haunter and deal heavy damage if they don't OHKO it. It would take some sort of wild development somewhere for me to think Haunter deserves a quickban.

:magneton:
I think Magneton has a lot going for it, probably more than any other wallbreaker in the tier; nothing quite forces as many switches as it does while completely shifting momentum away from the opponent, having such good defensive traits, and winning so many 1v1 situations. All of these traits are amplified by Terastallizing, which also tends to turn impossible matchups like Camerupt + Pincurchin on their head. With how amazing Analytic is, most people forget that Magnet Pull is also annoying and can help enable Substitute + Quiver Dance Vivillon among other things, but MPull is obviously less consistently good than Analytic. I don't think Magneton is flawless; it sort of needs to Tera to win certain matchups and is easily out-offensed if it can't or doesn't Tera. Absorbing weaker hits also becomes more annoying for it with how hard hazards can be to remove and with how slow it is (if you don't run max Speed and/or Choice Scarf). That said, I wouldn't necessarily mind a quickban for this thing even if I'm not 100% in favor of one.

:tinkatuff:
Very cute, very annoying, and starting to become very popular. Tinkatuff's a huge part of how annoying hazards are due to ignoring Hattrem's Magic Bounce, being pretty hard to OHKO, and forcing more switches than you'd think between Knock Off, Thunder Wave, and Encore. The fact that it pairs so well with stuff like Gabite and allows it to effectively run sets like SpDef RestTalk is nice, too. Give this thing a try if you haven't already, it won't disappoint you.

:quaxwell:
A lot of teams have Spikes/Toxic Spikes + Misdreavus, and if they're not using Misdreavus, they're using some other bulky Ghost-type that's definitely worse than Misdreavus (Drakloak, Bramblin, Greavard, etc.). This is to say that spinning is getting more and more difficult, which is a serious blow to Quaxwell and its viability. While I think it's going to get worse as time passes, I don't think it'll get so bad that it completely falls out of usage or anything.
 
:quaxwell:
A lot of teams have Spikes/Toxic Spikes + Misdreavus, and if they're not using Misdreavus, they're using some other bulky Ghost-type that's definitely worse than Misdreavus (Drakloak, Bramblin, Greavard, etc.). This is to say that spinning is getting more and more difficult, which is a serious blow to Quaxwell and its viability. While I think it's going to get worse as time passes, I don't think it'll get so bad that it completely falls out of usage or anything.[/hide]
Banette: Am I a joke to you???
 
:sv/frogadier:
Frogadier @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent/Protean
Tera Type: Water/Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Naive/Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- U-turn
- Taunt/Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

I think this is currently the best spiker in the tier, which can be a good playstyle with the poor quality of hazard removal available. It is reasonably strong so can be used to check/revenge-kill some meta threats like Houndoom/Haunter in a pinch with its good speed tier (base 97) if required. With eviolite it can normally live 1 strong hit or 2-3 weaker hits from most things in PU. I typically prefer Torrent over Protean as losing STAB on Hydro Pump after spiking/taunting can be a bit annoying but both abilities are viable.

:sv/drakloak:
Drakloak @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Steel/Water/Fairy etc.
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Tail
- U-turn
- Phantom Force

I think this does have a good niche over Mismagius on many spikestack teams. It can still come in comfortably on the common hazard removers like Quaxwell/Carkol and block the spin. Even though its defensive stats are a bit worse compared to Mismagius, it can afford to run minimal speed investment, so the bulk works out similar overall. EV spread can be optimised by team, it is possible to run more speed to burn faster Gabite for example.

The main problem I have found with defensive Mismagius is that it allows things like Houndoom/Pyroar in for free a lot of the time. Vivillon can also easily setup on it. Drakloak has access to U-Turn which allows to keep momentum up better against these type of threats. Dragon Tail can phase out Houndoom switchins as well, synergises well with spikes and is good for phasing out random setup mons.

Main disadvantage with Drakloak is obviously the lack of reliable recovery and no Levitate, meaning it gets worn down quite quickly by opposing hazards. Without hazards up it cant do much damage so can be a bit useless in some games. It doesnt really have a good ghost STAB past Phantom Force which is obviously unreliable.
 
Phew, after my run in the kickoff tour I can finally make a colorful post as I often do for every meta. I didn't expect to get that far so I had to hide my tricks and opinions till I eventually got out. So here I am now. My best luck to KJ Corp in finals ^^

Before I start I have to say and I will in my teams post too. Huge shoutout to my buddy Scarf Kricketune who unfortunately we matched in r1. But he helped me test and build throughout the tour. Love u fam

K NOW :falinks: :falinks: !!
Imma take some words from people who have posted now before and my takes on some I feel the need to address, and this will be supported by some replays if needed to.

1. Thoughts on the 'problems'
- Absolutely busted mon in a sense that it isn't broken itself but its stupid good and splashable on every single team, used for ladder or tour games. Not a single good counter more than having to force your tera or let it chip away half your team. Forces a lot of 50/50 which are always on Magneton player's favor. I have found that Bulky Evio is the best as it becomes a natural switch-in to a lot of common mons in the tier like Quaxwell, Skuntank, Misdreavus, Indeedee. etc. Camel gets Tera Water in the face. Flash Cannon is super free for punishing switches. I'll def ban this pokemon ASAP if the meta wants to develop to a healthy state.

- In a metagame where hazards stack is so common, because is so damn good and prevalent, since the best hazard control is a spinner. Ghost types makes sense as they will fulfill a great utility and offensive roll. But one problem, Haunter doesn't spinblock period. Boi is this frail, so for me its hard to build with it, offensively is great but not something that can't be deal with. Tinkatuff, Skuntank, Zweilous even Camel naturally switches into it even with its variety of sets. I honestly think Misdreavus is better as the role of a Ghost-type per say, showed in the last rounds of kickoff tour where everyone where using Misdreavus as it is a lot more reliable. This mon is fine.

- So my thoughts on Vivillon had changed drastically after my run in tour. Maybe it is because at that level I assumed everyone would run an answer for Viv, but it started to disappear in usage. This is the example of a mon that suceeds in ladder and its found by the playerbase broken, but in 'high-level play' its manageable, speed tier makes it ok for scarfers and revenge killers to do against it as it is quite frail even in the special side after a QD. And with phazing being so common in Gabite and Zweil mostly. I can't see this as broken right now, maybe the mono Hurricane Sub set is the scariest but still, Vivillon is manageable, quite unhealthy but not problematic IMO. (Also banning QD is the most stupid request I've heard)


2. Something I need to address urgently

Zweilous - Someone put this at S on their personal VR which is absurd as all things come. This Pokemon doesn't do enough. Its defensive typing aiding versus Houndoom is great and all, but never has this justified an individual slot. 72% chance to phase out sweepers that people claim it prevents from sweeping. Why would I run this over specially defensive Dragonair? OH OH OH ALSO im not typing out an entire paragraph but this is the same shit with Sliggoo. Dragonair outclasses both, please don't use Zweilous and Sliggoo :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Absolutely the worst take ever and I'll write a whole essay because of this, sorry Chloe.
Edit: Im addressing Dragonair as a Sp.def wall, I think offensive E-Speeder is good and has potential.


One of the teams I've spammed the most had Zweilous and omg is Zweilous so good, its not S not by any means but its miles better than Dragonair at fulfilling a Sp. Def wall and Phazer, and theres multiple reasons for it.

1. Zweilous isn't passive. Crunch alone does good damage across the board and can be spammed since Zweil can just sit there in pokemon like Houndoom, Pyroar, Vivillon, Lilligant, Misdreavus (if scout fairy move), Haunter and beat them 1v1 with no necessity of directly phazing them.

2. Zweilous typing is just better. Comfortably switching on Indeedee, Houndoom, Magneton even if giving free Volt, Special Cacturne, Camerupt, even stalling Quax cuz again Crunch is good a chipping and forcing switch-ins. So much more reliable even with Hustle, cuz Zweil gives you those turns.

3. Roar > Dragon Tail a subtle optimization that makes Zweilous more reliable in potential Fairy Misdreavus which would completely wall this is Roar, Roar will not miss and will, most efectively than any other Dtail user, phaze out properly, and if you want damage, Crunch is there for you.

Replay of me vs tom in r5 showcasing how good Zweil is and carried that game hard
Also did the same in g3, saving me from getting swept

I used Zweilous pretty much all the tour until round 6 and you can hop over and look more replays of Zweilous performing, I don't see a reason to use Dragonair at all when you have this. Please don't use Dragonair, use Zweilous. Thank you.

3. Metagame shifting.

  • spikes are rare enough that with a tspikes absorber you can get away with no removal for now, but i think misdreavus spikestack might pick up in usage soon and that would be pretty tragic.
- So with duck being the premier hazard control and seemed almost mandatory for the majority of teams, and with good reasons. Players have found ways of pressuring this guy so hazards prevail. And boi they do, apart from maybe Toedscool which I see potential cuz it switches on Magneton. Every other hazard control kinda sucks, which led to this following pattern:

/
+


T spikes + Missy is amazing. Not only they perform alone a good defensive synergy but Toxic Spikes inmediately punish Quaxwell if it doesnt come hard into the user, and Misdreavus, unlike other ghosts can switch repeatedly into Quax even if offensive cuz of its natural bulk. Pair this with good rock users like Gabite or Perrserker and your hazards will do the job and stay. So yes, metagame shifted to this, whether you like it or not:(

3.5 Personal favorites.


- Insane potential in raw power, BU and tera options. It essentially has no switch-ins into its double stab (Mareanie is unmon) and it pressures so much by just clicking attacks, its just held down by its speed tier and force out by Mons like Misdreavus which would burn it (I did consider tera fire tbh) as it also can check a Houndoom/Pyroar which would like to force it out offensively. I know most used tera electric to perform against Magneton and Frostom but I like tera Water personally.


- Arguably best rocker rn, being a ground not weak to water or grass is huge, it usually needs to do more than it can in a single battle, meaning switching on Magneton, Skuntank repeatedly which it eventually struggles, but its consistent enough and very splashable. I've consider offensive sets relying in SD too, as there are very little EQ switch-ins which would like to take a dragon move, aside from Misdreavus. Great at phazing as well.

- Lot of people addressing on this already, just confirming that this mon is great. Good speed tier and damage output in Flare + HJK, access to U-turn in a fire type is huge. Personally it wishes to have Boots and Scarf at the same time, but even with all posting I still think its underlooked. Should be used more.

- An electric type that isn't potentially broken. I love this guy speed tier and movepool. Focus Blast works as an offensive measure against Magneton and Frostom and I used Tera Ice for Gabite, but also Surf destroying Camel naturally is great as in can choose what will wall it. I used Boots over a choiced item as I liked the freedom to click, very good mon.


- Virtually there aren't Rock-type switch ins aside from Gabite and the Steel-types just get destroyed by CC. I know the most common set is Scarf but I used CB in a form to capitalize on that 'no switch in' capability and it works quite well. It doesn't really need more coverage than Fighting and in with the proper partners it can get in and force a KO. Really good now.

4. Good mons I don't use cuz reasons
Disclaimer: This is not a section of 'don't use this', rather just good pokemon that don't fit me personally.


:tinkatuff: So I know how good this is in paper, but its just too passive and abusable for me, it gives Gabite and Magneton free moves every time and its utility isn't enough for me to justify a slot on a team most of the time. IDK. Its good but not my guy, or girl in this case.

- OMG I HATE YOU SO MUCH So prob one of the top mons in the tier and most reliable BU user and grass-type. Its just that it usually needs to pick what it will be checked by with its coverage (meaning either eq or rock slide) and the amount of posibilites with its tera options that imo it has to commit to to be good in battles, I might be wrong cuz I didn't perform well with this when testing. But its natural bulk and potential teras makes it very menacing, I would prob optimize like maybe boots for teams with no tspike absorber and experiment on the tera types cuz it can basically run any tera it wants.

That'd be all, I will make a post on Teams Bazaar prob, with the ones I built and performed well in tour.
Also I gotta say very fun tier, my favorite so far in SV. It might be because Im used to like lower tiers more, lol. See ya ^^
 
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April 2023 PU tier changes
Rotom-Frost moved from New to NU
Zorua-Hisui moved from LC to NU

Basculin moved from NU to PU
Masquerain moved from NU to PU
Vespiquen moved from NU to PU
+::basculin::masquerain::vespiquen:
-: :rotom frost::zorua hisui:

PU has lost relatively little, losing a strong offensive pivot in Rotom-Frost and an annoyance in Zorua-H.

On the other hand, the gains look quite strong. Basculin could act as PU's Bruxish with it's scary strong Adaptability Wave Crash and Aqua Jet or Reckless sets. Masquerain brings a bunch of tools with Intimidate, Sticky Web, and more Quiver Dance yaaaaaay. Finally, Vespiquen is going to put further strain on PU's hazard control with its unique combination of Spikes, Toxic, and recovery on top of its strong defenses. So, what are your thoughts on the new additions to PU and how big of an impact do you think they will have?
 
Hi, this is my first post here and I wanted to talk about the new drops because these mons are so good

:basculin: This thing is pretty fast for the tier and adaptability wave crash hits exceptionally hard, and it can potentially run reckless for better damage on head smash and double edge, and it even has access to priority in aqua jet. It's bulk isn't great and it tends to wear itself down pretty fast due to recoil so it needs help from pivot's to get in and I would imagine it's prone to getting revenge killed by opposing scarfers if its not scarfed itself but it feels very hard to answer defensively.

:vespiquen: Good bulk and access to roost spikes toxic spikes toxic and U-Turn makes this thing a great defensive pivot and hazard setter. Its typing is unfortunate but tera can help circumvent this somewhat, probably tera ghost to block spin attempts from quaxwell. It also lost defog this gen so sadly its not a new hazard remover, but it will definitely make hazard stack even scarier.

:masquerain: Another quiver dancer oh great. Surprised this dropped but spidops didn't. It also gives us a webs setter thats not completely awful, in fact its a pretty scary threat in its own right with quiver dance, having better special attack than vivillon and way better coverage with access to stuff like ice beam shadow ball and surf/hydro pump. Webs HO seems very scary right now with this mon
 
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Does anyone know what can handle Basculin? Because Wave Crash hits really hard with either Adaptability or Reckless. Plus the blue-striped form has access to Rock Head to not die from recoil and spam Wave Crash and Head Smash free from the fear of dying from recoil damage.
 
:pika:
I found a mon that revenge kill basculin, scovillain.
this guy besides killing most of the meta with modest choice scarf, also offers utility with spicy extract and will-o-wisp

Scovillain @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Spicy Extract
- Will-O-Wisp

good mon. (srry for bad english)
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1836381548

sort of basic team i've been using and having success with. thought i threw the match early but tera-normal guts double edge from squalkabilly went crazy!!

Squawkabilly @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge
- U-turn
- Quick Attack

 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1836381548

sort of basic team i've been using and having success with. thought i threw the match early but tera-normal guts double edge from squalkabilly went crazy!!

Squawkabilly @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge
- U-turn
- Quick Attack

Why run double-edge over facade? Facade is better in every situation except for the turn before the flame orb activates
 
So I've seen lots of talk about Glaceon with Tera Ground, but I've seen little to no talk about Glaceon with Tera Fighting, because on paper it's very strong. It has some advantages over Tera Ground, mainly turning the Rock and Steel weaknesses into resistances, and with the plethora of Ice moves and Shadow Ball, you have coverage over the Flying and Psychic weaknesses and for the Misdreavus that think they can safely switch into Tera Blast, leaving only Fairy Types as a solid answer to it. To add onto this, you threaten pretty much the whole tier with Tera Blast after one CM, inclucing Crabominable, who could otherwise easily switch into Glaceon and threaten to OHKO it with Close Combat or Ice Hammer if Glaceon goes for Tera Ground. This also turns it into pretty much the only Fighting Type Special Attacker in the tier, which are quite rare to encounter nowadays without using Tera.
 

asa

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o/

:basculin::basculin-blue-striped:
I want to be okay with Basculin, since Choice Scarf consistently revenge kills +1 Vivillon (shoutout to Choice Scarf Sawsbuck for needing Double-Edge to OHKO Viv from full 62.5% of the time), and it naturally checks a lot of big threats like Houndoom and Pyroar. It has some serious flaws, too: I don't like how it meshes with Quaxwell, the most common spinner, Water Absorb users have genuinely useful ways to punish it for using its STAB moves, it's not that fast, and physical sets can die really quickly between hazards and recoil if they're not using Rock Head.

However, Basculin feels too variable, even on sets like Choice Band that seem simple enough (you never know what ability it's gonna be and how much damage something will take from, say, Wave Crash until you actually get hit), and too dangerous to consistently play around. Unless you're running Water Absorb on your team somewhere, Basculin loses very little just throwing out its STAB moves, which are sometimes boosted further by Adaptability. The only other hard stops are like Quaxwell and Mareanie, which can only recover 8 times, and even these can potentially get blown back using coverage or Choice Specs-boosted Tera Blast with the right Tera type. Out-offensing Basculin can be difficult, too, since Aqua Jet hits a lot of the better Choice Scarf users pretty hard. I guess in short, Basculin is probably unhealthy, though I wouldn't call it broken yet. It's definitely like low S/high A+ rank or so, I'd say.

:vespiquen:
Bug #1 on the other hand is definitely not unhealthy. Vespiquen offers a lot of useful utility for one teamslot on top of being pretty sound defensively, and U-turn + Toxic make up somewhat for its relative passivity. Vespiquen also matches up okay against Quaxwell (especially if it uses Tera Ghost), though other removers like Dartrix and Fletchinder can be rather annoying for it. I look forward to using Vespiquen more, it seems like it'll remain solid for a while.

:masquerain:
Bug #2 gives us another Sticky Web user, but this is obviously less important than its access to Quiver Dance. Intimidate is nice, and so is Masquerain's amazing non-Tera coverage, but Vivillon and (arguably) Lilligant are both superior offensively. I haven't used Masquerain much myself and thus can't comment much on how good it is, though it seems like an interesting addition to the tier that definitely adds more of value to PU than Vivillon.

:misdreavus:
Gonna try to keep this brief. Misdreavus gives Spikes stack such a gross advantage in so many matchups, since it doesn't risk much of anything blocking Rapid Spin and can basically do it for the entire game. Furthermore, Misdreavus also shuts down and outlasts many of our Defoggers with Taunt + status + Pain Split, so running one instead of a spinner (already asking a lot with how mediocre our pool of Defoggers is) doesn't really fix the issue. This is to say nothing of its offensive sets, which make up for not as reliably denying removal by exploiting walls and opposing hazard setters and stealing entire games with how easily its grounded switch-ins are worn down. I'd be on board with banning Misdreavus and then reintroducing it if and when our removal gets better.
 
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Sup, it seems I might be staying here since zu kinda sucks cuz I like this tier a lot. And I also like the attention I wanna give my thoughts on the drops and the potential state of the tier for some future tiering action which I think is needed.

New Bugs
-
Seems like a good addition to the tier with its main asset as a Sticky Web user, and also a QD mon. Which I don't think its bad or unhealthy at all, it offers a potential faster playstyle and alone a good sweeper. I like what it brings to the tier tbh.


- Omg this makes spike stacking even better lol, it can perform as a spinblocker on its own with Tera-Ghost and its a slow pivot and blanket defensive wall. Honestly this mon is not unhealthy but the trend of new hazard setting may bring a desire for Defog users, making Dartrix and idk Corvisquire and Fletchinder have more usage? Maybe? I don't mean Quaxwell will be bad or anything but it may fell off a little with Vespiquen, the tera option and access to Toxic to wear it down, and Masquerain pressures it enough as well.

On the radar (imo):

- So new big guy, If this was more narrowed now I'd consider it to not be looked at but access to Wave Crash and boost from Tera makes this having a variety of sets that can work properly. All 3 Reckless, Rock Head and Adaptability are viable in the plethora of sets that this can run. CB, Scarf and Mystic Water are all extremely dangerous and also this forces Quax to go fully phys def which in the previous meta it could afford to go offensive (imo). It may look rushed but I think an inmediate voting, even if its not banned will be good to have.


- Imma go quick here since my opinion was stated in my previous post and nothing has changed about it. If anything the drops are more Magneton food as its more common tera its water. It can blanket all 3 new guys and still go rampage on the tier. I guess the only 'nerf' is that Frostom is gone and the double elec combo isn't a core anymore. But still.

- I mean this is what all the community is complaining about to the point of wanting a QD ban which bruh, if you really hate this just ban the pokemon. Anyway, I think its presence its unhealthy and even if its results on kickoff weren't the best. It goes crazy on ladder, which is also a huge chunk of the development of the meta, so for a voting I think this should be looked as well even if the outcome isn't the ban, same as Basculin.

Nothing much to say, just addressing some quick stuff. Until next time ^^
 
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Leni

formerly tlenit
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top three in the post is no brainer ban, but bringing misdreavus up as potentially problematic mon is weird. That being said, misdreavus has no reliable recovery move to compared to other ghost. Sure, its bulk is decent, but thats about it. If misdreacus is thought to be so annoying, think we better bring up other ghosts as well. Other ghosts as in drakloak and sandygast. Especially sandygast that in fact happens to have reliable recovery move and thanks to its ability will hard shut down Quax while setting rocks up. If you guys are taking that road on Missy, make it fair and square to all potentially spin blocking ghosts that has the bulk to do so.

e: and yes, i've been using Sandygast for good while and yes, it is viable at its job.
 
As someone who is allowed to have opinions, here are my thoughts on the potential bans. These opinions are mostly coming from me using this team, which definitely has its problems, and one of those is quite possibly that I suck, so take this with a grain of salt.

:vivillon-tundra: My team is actually pretty well prepped for Vivillon. I have Glimmet (or Dartrix, but hurricane) to absorb Sleep Powder, I have Lycanroc to switch in on a QD and threaten an OHKO, I have Dragon Tail Drakloak to force out Viv, and priority with Basculin and Houndoom to RKO tera ground in a pinch. I still suffer against Viv. I need to predict and switch around a couple of times to get Lycanroc (or Basc I guess) in safely and still pray my opponent doesn't tera. Please ban.

:magneton: My team has no Magneton switch-in. With that in mind, it's not as clearly broken as Viv, and I'm not sure if it is banworthy. It's definitely powerful, but it's damage is basically just insane chip and it's not hard to revenge kill. It also does the most when given more chances to come in, and this is a very hazard centric meta. No ban?? But maybe suspect soon/later, as it still does a lot.

:basculin-blue-striped: Am I allowed to still prefer Meditite to this? I probably don't run the right set, or run the anything right, because it doesn't feel broken when I use it. To be fair, I haven't faced it much also. With Basculin, you need to be a little more creative in the builder, because Quaxwell is also a water type. Its movepool isn't that deep either, and I think that given time, people will find stuff (read: grass types) to counter it. That or special sets pop off and you need to question if your Grass type is a check or a coverage move away from death. For me, it's too early rn, but I'm leaning no ban- it runs the same couple of moves and I don't see it tera outside of its type often.

:misdreavus: I have learned how to spell Misdreavus, kind of. Also, I run Dartrix. Missy has nothing on Knock Off + Defog. No ban plz.
 
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EonX

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Gonna be a 2-pronged post. First part talking about the mons up for council vote and then discussing something I've genuinely enjoyed using in this meta.

: So the addition of Basculin actually helps offensive teams against this thing as its dead as soon as it Teras Ground (and it has to in order to handle Tinkatuff and, to a lesser extent, Perrserker) but using broken to check broken isn't exactly a healthy way to go about things. The issue is that Viv just has to save Sleep for something it can't OHKO after a boost and the strain on teambuilding is pretty intense as it just needs 1 turn against most teams to just be in a dominant position to run (fly?) away with the rest of the game. Sure, plenty of things can handle it in theory, but are they going to be in a position or the condition to handle Viv whenever it finally decides to hit the field? Probably not considering hazard control is pretty sketch.

: Yeah, this thing is kinda dumb. Choice Band is bad enough, but the fact it can run Scarf to crush fast teams or Mystic Water to bluff a Choice item altogether is just stupid. Great Speed tier, Adaptability Aqua Jet ruins most faster mons, Adaptability Wave Crash means you're probably dead if you don't resist. And just when you think you can play the long game (kinda) and force it to die through recoil, it's Rock Head and still 2 shotting you because CB Tera Water Wave Crash is still stupid strong without Adaptability. Do you have a Cacturne? Hope it doesn't read that switch and Ice Fang. If it does, you're definitely dead.

: This is probably the one I'm most on the fence on. On the one hand, its Eviolite set makes it able to eat hits it really shouldn't be taking while also dealing ridiculous damage. If you really want to hit harder, you just don a pair of Specs and kill everything if you predict decently well. The Speed tier is thankfully just low enough to where breaker Mag is going to struggle some against offense and Eviolite sets in particular really dislike the current hazard removal situation. However, with Scarf becoming a viable set for its boosted Speed, Mag becomes a problem even for the faster teams designed to give it hell because now its outspeeding them and still killing them on the switch. I'm leaning toward ban on this one, but I'm definitely not as sold on it as I am the two above.

: I can see why this is getting the attention it is, but I also don't really believe that it deserves to go... yet. The big issue that Misdreavus is beginning to cause is how easily it enables Spike stack teams. For the less initiated, Spike stack is a term used to describe teams that exploit multiple layers of Spikes to put heavy pressure on the opposing team while emloying a reliable means of keeping hazards up. Typically, Defog is there to make hardcore Spike stack somewhat unreliable, but considering our best Defog option is... Dartrix(?) that means Rapid Spin is the only way. Combine this with the fact that Quaxwell not only has a miserable matchup against Misdreavus but an arguably worse matchup against Cacturne, the most common offensive Spiker, and you have a recipe for disaster. As this team style rises in popularity, there's a reason I mentioned Missy not deserving to go yet; can the meta adjust? I don't think we've really had the time to do that yet and I'd like to give us a chance to see if there are adjustments that can be made in order to combat this team style. For example, would the banning of Vivillon and Basculin lessen the need for Quaxwell to use Encore and open up a chance for it to use Brave Bird to deal with Cacturne or Tera Blast Dark to deter Misdreavus? (pre-Tera Fairy) No real way to know that unless we give it a chance to see.

Now on to something I've been using a lot of recently and genuinely liked:


Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Sucker Punch
- Dark Pulse


Mixed Spikes Cacturne is incredibly fun right now and it absolutely dumpsters any Quaxwell not running Brave Bird. Giving a free turn to Houndoom doesn't seem too great, but it's taking 30% or so just to switch in, so it's not nothing. You could experiment with a physical mixed set; using Low Kick over Dark Pulse and Leaf Storm over Giga Drain, but I like Giga Drain for the heals to keep Cacturne around longer than your opponent would probably like. The fact it takes approximately -25% from Banded Wave Crash is also hella nice when even some resists aren't exactly safe. This also happens to pair pretty well with Gabite on more offensive teams as both handle some very strong threats through immunities and can keep up offensive pressure. As for the Tera type, it kind of depends on what you're using Cacturne with. Dark is more offensively focused as it makes Sucker Punch laughably do 45% minimum to Houndoom which means most other frail sweepers are not standing a chance. It also turns Dark Pulse into more of a true nuke move as it even does upwards of 55% minimum to most versions of Gabite (i.e ones that aim to outspeed Modest Mag) Ghost is more defensive as it ensures Quaxwell never Rapid Spins against you, turns your Fighting weakness into an immunity, and generally gives you a better overall defensive typing. Use Dark if you have a Ghost and use Ghost if you need to be the Ghost yourself. Rash is over Naive because it still outspeeds neutral base 50s (so basically you kill CB Perrserker before it kills your whole family with U-turn) and beefs up the power of Giga Drian and Dark Pulse.
 

asa

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top three in the post is no brainer ban, but bringing misdreavus up as potentially problematic mon is weird. That being said, misdreavus has no reliable recovery move to compared to other ghost. Sure, its bulk is decent, but thats about it. If misdreacus is thought to be so annoying, think we better bring up other ghosts as well. Other ghosts as in drakloak and sandygast. Especially sandygast that in fact happens to have reliable recovery move and thanks to its ability will hard shut down Quax while setting rocks up. If you guys are taking that road on Missy, make it fair and square to all potentially spin blocking ghosts that has the bulk to do so.

e: and yes, i've been using Sandygast for good while and yes, it is viable at its job.
I originally stealth edited my earlier post to address your points, but in hopes of keeping the discussion going before the vote, I'll make it its own post and go into a bit more detail.

You could argue this sort of thing with the Quiver Dancers, which have similarly been controversial throughout SV PU's existence. They all do the same thing and have a similar effect on the metagame, so why not just remove Quiver Dance as a whole instead of singling out, say, Oricorio-F? The reason Quiver Dance as a whole was not banned is because (a) Oricorio-F was far better than the other users and had less consistent counterplay and (b) it was not immediately clear that every single user was broken/unhealthy in the same way Oricorio-F was. We did end up banning Oricorio-P later on, but only after time passed and it became obvious it was also bad for the tier. Vivillon, after losing two of its better checks (as well as Rotom-F) is now on the chopping block for much the same reason, to my understanding.

Focusing on bulky Ghost-types, Misdreavus is far better than any of its contemporaries. Stuff like Drakloak and Sandygast have merit even outside of denying Quaxwell's Rapid Spin (mainly due to the useful roles they compress for a team); however, they're both grounded, which makes them easier to wear down via entry hazards, and don't match up as well against the tier at large as Misdreavus does. They're also not as flexible as Misdreavus, which can tech on coverage to hit the Fire-types that it baits in or simply be a completely different set than punishes you for predicting incorrectly or using certain Pokemon. Lastly, while Misdreavus doesn't have reliable recovery, Encore Quaxwell exploits Sandygast's Shore Up and Drakloak's RestTalk is definitely not reliable either; this issue becomes worse when you factor in the earlier point about them being grounded.

I understand you're not claiming that Misdreavus is worse than other bulky Ghost-types or anything like that, but your point about it not being fair to single out Misdreavus goes against previous tiering action. We didn't refuse to take action on Oricorio-F because singling it out over the other Quiver Dancers would be unfair. Oricorio-F and Misdreavus are completely different, yeah, but they're both similar in that they have a negative impact on the tier despite contributing some good to it (albeit for different reasons). If it's the case that other bulky Ghost-types take Misdreavus's spot and Spikes stack remains constrictive and unhealthy (which may be true but certainly would not be to the same extent), then we can take action regarding them, too. However, we have to actually get there first to see whether or not this will be the case.
 
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